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AES
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 Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: Searching contents of computer HDs during security checks? |
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A message in an ongoing thread on c.s.m.s. claims that security personnel at airport security checkpoints can, if they wish to, electronically examine or even download the contents (i.e., the data storage contents) of your computer, and that once they demand to do so, you cannot stop them.
Is this correct? Can the security personnel at a checkpoint make such a demand (in the course of a flight security inspection, not as a part of some separate criminal investigation)? If so, does this happen at all frequently? And can an individual forestall such an inspection by declining to continue through the checkpoint?
What's the corresponding situation for incoming immigration and customs inspections? (foreigners attempting to enter the U.S., or U.S. citizens arriving back in the U.S.)
[I recall news stories about such inspections by British immigration officials some years ago, possibly in connection with child porno suspects.] |
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Rick Blaine
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Searching contents of computer HDs during security check |
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AES <siegman@stanford.edu> wrote:
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A message in an ongoing thread on c.s.m.s. claims that security personnel at airport security checkpoints can, if they wish to, electronically examine or even download the contents (i.e., the data storage contents) of your computer, and that once they demand to do so, you cannot stop them.
Is this correct? Can the security personnel at a checkpoint make such a demand (in the course of a flight security inspection, not as a part of some separate criminal investigation)? If so, does this happen at all frequently? And can an individual forestall such an inspection by declining to continue through the checkpoint?
What's the corresponding situation for incoming immigration and customs inspections? (foreigners attempting to enter the U.S., or U.S. citizens arriving back in the U.S.) |
Of course they can - why would you think otherwise? Will they? Depends on what's in your file, what your itinerary was and what the agent feels like that day.
Depending on the country and your citizenship status with that country the rules may differ slightly, but basically if you aren't travelling on a diplomatic passport the authorities can do anything they like up to and including body cavity searches. Equally as much, they can search anything you are bringing with you.
If you are a US citizen and reentering the US, you'll be welcomed back home afterwards, but otherwise there isn't much difference. |
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Jim Davis
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: Searching contents of computer HDs during security check |
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X-No-Archive: Yes
On Apr 30, 6:15 pm, AES <sieg...@stanford.edu> wrote:
| Quote: |
A message in an ongoing thread on c.s.m.s. claims that security personnel at airport security checkpoints can, if they wish to, electronically examine or even download the contents (i.e., the data storage contents) of your computer, and that once they demand to do so, you cannot stop them.
Is this correct? Can the security personnel at a checkpoint make such a demand (in the course of a flight security inspection, not as a part of some separate criminal investigation)? If so, does this happen at all frequently? And can an individual forestall such an inspection by declining to continue through the checkpoint?
What's the corresponding situation for incoming immigration and customs inspections? (foreigners attempting to enter the U.S., or U.S. citizens arriving back in the U.S.)
[I recall news stories about such inspections by British immigration officials some years ago, possibly in connection with child porno suspects.] |
I've never seen it in the US, but I see a lot of it in Canadian Customs. If they want to, they probibly can. Better delete all that porn. |
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Rick Blaine
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: Searching contents of computer HDs during security check |
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In rereading this, it looks like you are asking about two different scenarios - passing through security to airside and reentering the country.
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| Quote: |
A message in an ongoing thread on c.s.m.s. claims that security personnel at airport security checkpoints can, if they wish to, electronically examine or even download the contents (i.e., the data storage contents) of your computer, and that once they demand to do so, you cannot stop them.
Is this correct? Can the security personnel at a checkpoint make such a demand (in the course of a flight security inspection, not as a part of some separate criminal investigation)? |
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If security has the authority to inspect your belongings (and they do), they can pretty much do what they like. Any attempts to argue that your laptop isn't an explosive device and therefor they have no need to examine the contents are likely to be met with a blank stare and an invitation to sit in a windowless room for a while.
There's many instances where a TSA agent has discovered something not a threat to the flight but illegal and turned the person over to local authorities. The most recent public one was the Falcon's quarterback and his stash of pot IIRC.
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| If so, does this happen at all frequently? |
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Not that I've seen. But if you get selected for additional screening and something comes up, you can bet they'll be looking at everything you have with you.
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| And can an individual forestall such an inspection by declining to continue through the checkpoint? |
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No - court rulings in the US have held that once you enter the security checkpoint, backing out is not an option for any reason. The thinking being that if you allowed people to back out when they got caught, you'd end up with large numbers of people "testing" the system.
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| What's the corresponding situation for incoming immigration and customs inspections? (foreigners attempting to enter the U.S., or U.S. citizens arriving back in the U.S.) |
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Of course they can - why would you think otherwise? Will they? Depends on what's in your file, what your itinerary was and what the agent feels like that day.
Depending on the country and your citizenship status with that country the rules may differ slightly, but basically if you aren't travelling on a diplomatic passport the authorities can do anything they like up to and including body cavity searches. Equally as much, they can search anything you are bringing with you.
If you are a US citizen and reentering the US, you'll be welcomed back home afterwards, but otherwise there isn't much difference. |
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Mxsmanic
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:16 pm Post subject: Re: Searching contents of computer HDs during security check |
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AES writes:
| Quote: |
A message in an ongoing thread on c.s.m.s. claims that security personnel at airport security checkpoints can, if they wish to, electronically examine or even download the contents (i.e., the data storage contents) of your computer, and that once they demand to do so, you cannot stop them.
Is this correct? Can the security personnel at a checkpoint make such a demand (in the course of a flight security inspection, not as a part of some separate criminal investigation)? If so, does this happen at all frequently? And can an individual forestall such an inspection by declining to continue through the checkpoint? |
It can be done in the USA, not necessarily in other countries. |
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Wes Groleau
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:46 pm Post subject: Re: Searching contents of computer HDs during security check |
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AES wrote:
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| A message in an ongoing thread on c.s.m.s. claims that security personnel at airport security checkpoints can, if they wish to, electronically examine or even download the contents (i.e., the data storage contents) of your computer, and that once they demand to do so, you cannot stop them. |
Temporarily forget about legalities: HOW are they going to do that? They do not have the equipment the NSA is alleged to have.
No, they have to ask you to login. And if you actually have something to hide, you have turned off the menu login, so they can't see that you have two login accounts. They ask you to log in, and you use the one that hides and or deletes things during login.
If you have a Mac, they have no clue how to determine that the disk size Finder reports is false. In fact, they probably don't even know how to tell on Windows. |
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Mxsmanic
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 3:28 am Post subject: Re: Searching contents of computer HDs during security check |
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Wes Groleau writes:
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| Temporarily forget about legalities: HOW are they going to do that? They do not have the equipment the NSA is alleged to have. |
They don't need it. All they have to do is copy the disk. |
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Shawn Hirn
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Searching contents of computer HDs during security check |
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In article <siegman-B747FE.16153830042007@news.stanford.edu>, AES <siegman@stanford.edu> wrote:
| Quote: |
A message in an ongoing thread on c.s.m.s. claims that security personnel at airport security checkpoints can, if they wish to, electronically examine or even download the contents (i.e., the data storage contents) of your computer, and that once they demand to do so, you cannot stop them.
Is this correct? Can the security personnel at a checkpoint make such a demand (in the course of a flight security inspection, not as a part of some separate criminal investigation)? If so, does this happen at all frequently? And can an individual forestall such an inspection by declining to continue through the checkpoint?
What's the corresponding situation for incoming immigration and customs inspections? (foreigners attempting to enter the U.S., or U.S. citizens arriving back in the U.S.)
[I recall news stories about such inspections by British immigration officials some years ago, possibly in connection with child porno suspects.] |
Why would they bother? Data on a computer cannot possibly cause a laptop to blow up in flight, and the TSA is after threats that can occur on a flight to the passengers; not data. I seriously doubt what you heard is true; plus if your data is encrypted with a strong key; it would take way too long for the TSA to get at it, plus I doubt they have the skills to try to look. I travel with a laptop by air frequently and they have never given my laptop a second look, even in situations such as my last flight where my carry-on luggage (not my laptop bag) was searched THREE times by the TSA, including a hand search where they inspected EVERY item in the bag by hand. |
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Clever Monkey
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 10:19 am Post subject: Re: Searching contents of computer HDs during security check |
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Mxsmanic wrote:
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Wes Groleau writes:
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| Temporarily forget about legalities: HOW are they going to do that? They do not have the equipment the NSA is alleged to have. |
They don't need it. All they have to do is copy the disk. |
While true, it is probably unlikely that they would have the bandwidth to do that for a simply boot test to prove the computer is real, and an idle dig around on your desktop (for who knows what). I read a blog by a frequent traveller who ran into a confused screener who didn't really know how to make Windows XP work. He had to show the screener where the "documents" and "pictures" were.
For those cases where they might confiscate your laptop for some reason then all bets are off, of course, and all sorts of copying and forensics could happen. Your best course is securing your real home directory, making sure you log out prior to flying. That, and a dummy account for idle checks, is Good Enough security for most of us. Hell, keep the dummy account logged in with a Word document and a puzzle game open. Make your desktop wallpaper some well-known sports icon that fits your "profile". As a Canuck, it would be unexpected to have a Montreal Canadiens icons as my wallpaper (or something).
Border dudes look for people behaving "hinky", so the idea is to be as unhinky as possible while quietly asserting the right to basic privacy.
This newish policy is actually a bit of a problem for academic and business fliers, who may have sensitive information on their laptops, or information that they have to protect because of ethical concerns. Filevault is pretty much your best bet under these circumstances. For example, my SO will be collecting interviews for her thesis, and she must abide by the ethical standards of the institutions and parties involved. I actually helped her word a security blurb for a proposal, since many organizations are concerned with this exact problem: officials seizing data stores collected by foreign travellers.
Since it can be hard to know what is and what isn't going to get you in trouble, you can always additionally place select data on an encrypted disk image. Unless you are an international crime figure, I can't see most countries taking the time to crack /two/ encrypted stores. Unfortunately, the countries we can't trust who are most interested in this data are also the countries with a lot of computing power and math expertise.
If you are an international crime figure, I suggest keeping your data in your head and ditching the laptop.
One thing is for sure: if I flew regularly, I'd get space on an encrypted-access online backup service so that my laptop didn't have unique information on it. Assume that your laptop can be taken from you at any point, whether by an over-zealous screen or by cosmic rays that turn it into a brick. |
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hummingbird
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Searching contents of computer HDs during security check |
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On Tue, 01 May 2007 06:12:59 -0400 'Shawn Hirn' posted this onto rec.travel.air:
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| Why would they bother? Data on a computer cannot possibly cause a laptop to blow up in flight, and the TSA is after threats that can occur on a flight to the passengers; not data. I seriously doubt what you heard is true; plus if your data is encrypted with a strong key; it would take way too long for the TSA to get at it, plus I doubt they have the skills to try to look. I travel with a laptop by air frequently and they have never given my laptop a second look, even in situations such as my last flight where my carry-on luggage (not my laptop bag) was searched THREE times by the TSA, including a hand search where they inspected EVERY item in the bag by hand. |
So a laptop is a very good place to hide a small bomb...
The utter stupidity of governmental security checks at airports is beyond belief ...it's no more than dumb officialdom groupthink. And we vote for these clowns... |
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Mxsmanic
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: Searching contents of computer HDs during security check |
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Scott en Aztlán writes:
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| Sure - they just open up your laptop, take out the hard drive, and Ghost it onto a second HD they have handy - and it's all done in time for you to still catch your flight. |
Yup. |
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Mxsmanic
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Searching contents of computer HDs during security check |
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Shawn Hirn writes:
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| Why would they bother? Data on a computer cannot possibly cause a laptop to blow up in flight ... |
That's not the reason for looking at a laptop. The reason is to gain information; "security" is just an excuse for ignoring individual privacy.
A lot of "security" justified as being necessary to protect against "terrorists" is in fact information-gathering for other purposes. Governments have been aching to drop many civil liberties for decades, and "terrorism" now gives them an excuse to do so with a population that is too stupid to object. |
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Mxsmanic
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Searching contents of computer HDs during security check |
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Hilary writes:
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| If they think you are a suspicious person, they might want to look at your laptop to see if it contains pertinent information: contacts to dodgy people, a file labeled "Bomb making for dummies", maps of unauthorized areas or similar. |
If they think you have useful trade secrets or other confidential data on your laptop, they might want a copy of the disk to pass to the spooks.
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| Finding connections to terrorist organizations is almost more important than catching one individual terrorist (unless, of course, he's carrying explosives at the time). |
There isn't enough time to analyze data at the gate. |
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William Black
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: Searching contents of computer HDs during security check |
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"Scott en Aztlán" <scottenaztlan@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:cqhe33phd1f0sjb26j7v1r23mcj1mjp8l5@4ax.com...
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Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail.com> said in rec.travel.air:
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Wes Groleau writes:
| Quote: |
| Temporarily forget about legalities: HOW are they going to do that? They do not have the equipment the NSA is alleged to have. |
They don't need it. All they have to do is copy the disk. |
Sure - they just open up your laptop, take out the hard drive, and Ghost it onto a second HD they have handy - and it's all done in time for you to still catch your flight. |
So what do they do about the 4 gig memory stick you keep attached to your mobile phone?
Or do we assume that terrorists don't have access to large Internet technology retailers?
If it's more than a few gigs then Western Digital will sell you a very nice encrypted passport drive for less than £50 ($100) and you can slip it into your coat pocket.
Or do you think decrypting 128 bit encryption is trivial?
That's before we actually get to talking about the usefulness of someone reading people's hard disks in large numbers... |
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Wes Groleau
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Searching contents of computer HDs during security check |
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Clever Monkey wrote:
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| idle dig around on your desktop (for who knows what). I read a blog by a frequent traveller who ran into a confused screener who didn't really know how to make Windows XP work. He had to show the screener where the "documents" and "pictures" were. |
My point exactly. They don't know HOW to look at your Mac OS disk. I doubt if the even know how to pull it out without breaking something or operate a copier.
Besides, if you are a terrorist, studying a copy of your encrypted files _after_ letting you on the plane is not really a good thing, is it? |
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